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	<title>Comments on: What’s up with premed altruism and nobility?</title>
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	<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/</link>
	<description>Entertainment and Advice for Budding Physicians</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 03:34:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-2096</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-2096</guid>
		<description>Hey Jason, 
 
It&#039;s sad to hear these things happen.  Whenever you have a competitive situation happen, you will always run into people who will try and get an edge over the competition at any cost... even at cost of their own integrity. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jason,</p>
<p>It&#039;s sad to hear these things happen.  Whenever you have a competitive situation happen, you will always run into people who will try and get an edge over the competition at any cost&#8230; even at cost of their own integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-2092</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-2092</guid>
		<description>One of my psych profs in undergrad told me about his experience in his zoology undergrad program in the States.  He told me it was full of premeds that were crazy competitive.  Some would even manufacture fake notes and distribute them to whoever missed the class just hoping to trip them up.  That&#039;s pretty extreme.  I heard the same thing happened at UBC.  This may not be super relevant but I find it interesting how far people are willing to go.  At U of A quite some time ago, there were instances where people would quickly switch the signs pointing to organs on a specimen during a bellringer. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my psych profs in undergrad told me about his experience in his zoology undergrad program in the States.  He told me it was full of premeds that were crazy competitive.  Some would even manufacture fake notes and distribute them to whoever missed the class just hoping to trip them up.  That&#039;s pretty extreme.  I heard the same thing happened at UBC.  This may not be super relevant but I find it interesting how far people are willing to go.  At U of A quite some time ago, there were instances where people would quickly switch the signs pointing to organs on a specimen during a bellringer.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1897</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1897</guid>
		<description>Hey Brian, 
 
Yah, the point is that we all draw our own lines for what&#039;s acceptable/expected in terms of altruism, and it isn&#039;t appropriate to force others to accept the lines we draw. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian,</p>
<p>Yah, the point is that we all draw our own lines for what&#039;s acceptable/expected in terms of altruism, and it isn&#039;t appropriate to force others to accept the lines we draw.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1894</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1894</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how premeds or med students can make the argument to themselves that they&#039;re doing everything with noble intentions for the sake of helping others. If any of us really wanted to help others we&#039;d be working at a soup kitchen full time rather than spending 12-15 years and huge amounts of money becoming doctors. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m not sure how premeds or med students can make the argument to themselves that they&#039;re doing everything with noble intentions for the sake of helping others. If any of us really wanted to help others we&#039;d be working at a soup kitchen full time rather than spending 12-15 years and huge amounts of money becoming doctors.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherry</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1684</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1684</guid>
		<description>Hi Joshua, 
 
I am really glad you wrote this article. I agree with most of what you&#039;ve said, especially the part telling us to think for ourselves and not project our own morals on others. It&#039;s a smart thing to do, whether you are a premed or not. 
 
-Sherry </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joshua,</p>
<p>I am really glad you wrote this article. I agree with most of what you&#039;ve said, especially the part telling us to think for ourselves and not project our own morals on others. It&#039;s a smart thing to do, whether you are a premed or not.</p>
<p>-Sherry</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1674</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1674</guid>
		<description>Hey the_boz, 
 
Thanks for your insightful comment and a position I&#8217;m glad someone brought up (as I expected someone would).  It&#8217;s most definitely something I&#8217;ve thought about (e.g. I have thought about personally charging for consulting, but then that produces a financial barrier to access, but then it&#8217;s also nice to be compensated for your work, etc. etc.).  It&#8217;s a complex situation and I think it&#8217;s going to be hard to find an overall compromise.  The interesting thing is that you can also extend this argument to things beyond medical school admissions (e.g. tutoring).  People with money and resources are always going to have an advantage and this advantage will always exist unless you completely change the system and the rules that govern it.  Problem is not only that this is very difficult to do, but also questionable whether it is the &#8220;right&#8221; thing to do (especially when it comes to discussing freedom of choice). 
 
I wonder, could you go as far as to argue that my blog indirectly hurts those who don&#8217;t have the online research skills to find it and benefit from it?  Or what about those who lack regular internet access?  (in essence, the help I provide isn&#8217;t &#8220;free&#8221; then, though I&#8217;m sure someone would argue reasonable access to Internet, but you get the point). 
 
What about connections and knowing people - is it &#8220;unfair&#8221; for me to have friends in medical school who help me review my application and help me practice for the interview?  Are there not social barriers that affect success? 
 
What about being able to afford to apply to more medical schools and travel for interviews?  To afford post-secondary in the first place? 
 
Clearly, advantages exist in ways beyond just getting ahead in the application process.  You could extend this concept to the entire world past admissions. 
 
There are consistently going to be barriers of access to resources, financial or not.  What would be a fair leveling of the playing field then?  And I don&#039;t just mean fair to the applicants, but fair to all parties involved (businesses, medical schools, etc. etc.). </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey the_boz,</p>
<p>Thanks for your insightful comment and a position I&rsquo;m glad someone brought up (as I expected someone would).  It&rsquo;s most definitely something I&rsquo;ve thought about (e.g. I have thought about personally charging for consulting, but then that produces a financial barrier to access, but then it&rsquo;s also nice to be compensated for your work, etc. etc.).  It&rsquo;s a complex situation and I think it&rsquo;s going to be hard to find an overall compromise.  The interesting thing is that you can also extend this argument to things beyond medical school admissions (e.g. tutoring).  People with money and resources are always going to have an advantage and this advantage will always exist unless you completely change the system and the rules that govern it.  Problem is not only that this is very difficult to do, but also questionable whether it is the &ldquo;right&rdquo; thing to do (especially when it comes to discussing freedom of choice).</p>
<p>I wonder, could you go as far as to argue that my blog indirectly hurts those who don&rsquo;t have the online research skills to find it and benefit from it?  Or what about those who lack regular internet access?  (in essence, the help I provide isn&rsquo;t &ldquo;free&rdquo; then, though I&rsquo;m sure someone would argue reasonable access to Internet, but you get the point).</p>
<p>What about connections and knowing people &#8211; is it &ldquo;unfair&rdquo; for me to have friends in medical school who help me review my application and help me practice for the interview?  Are there not social barriers that affect success?</p>
<p>What about being able to afford to apply to more medical schools and travel for interviews?  To afford post-secondary in the first place?</p>
<p>Clearly, advantages exist in ways beyond just getting ahead in the application process.  You could extend this concept to the entire world past admissions.</p>
<p>There are consistently going to be barriers of access to resources, financial or not.  What would be a fair leveling of the playing field then?  And I don&#039;t just mean fair to the applicants, but fair to all parties involved (businesses, medical schools, etc. etc.).</p>
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		<title>By: the_boz</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1673</link>
		<dc:creator>the_boz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1673</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting thread because it really does reflect the general debate about public versus private. The argument for increased quality, as well as that of market freedom (ie. freedom to undertake an enterprise) are often invoked in favour of privatization (whether we&#039;re talking about healthcare, netneutrality debates, fisheries etc.).  
 
I think what you&#039;re missing in your analysis Josh, is that protection of public goods is sometimes necessary in order to ensure that EVERYONE is better off. When people responded ardently against med students charging for admissions consulting services, it is because those who posted did so on a public forum that has as one of its core principles empowerment through shared knowledge and discussion. If we as a society, or as potential applicants to medicine, find it acceptable that people begin to charge for some of the information that would otherwise be available freely on the med forums, we create a tiered system wherein access is denied for some (whether that be for geographic reasons, monetary reasons etc.). This disparity in access is actually a serious problem as far as medical school admissions is concerned because it perpetuates class systems already in place- affluent individuals from major urban centres continue to be able to preferentially access resources which in turn help them occupy positions of power and authority in society.  
 
So, if we are interested in attempting to level the playing field (which is already extremely skewed toward the status quo via MCAT courses, access to summer jobs, time spent studying instead of working etc.) we do need to speak up in favor of shared information for the public pre-med good. Does this make med students who want to offer this service &quot;bad people&quot;, probably not, but in my opinion it is short-sighted and does a dis-service to the movement for a more diverse (financially, culturally, geographically) medical profession. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting thread because it really does reflect the general debate about public versus private. The argument for increased quality, as well as that of market freedom (ie. freedom to undertake an enterprise) are often invoked in favour of privatization (whether we&#039;re talking about healthcare, netneutrality debates, fisheries etc.). </p>
<p>I think what you&#039;re missing in your analysis Josh, is that protection of public goods is sometimes necessary in order to ensure that EVERYONE is better off. When people responded ardently against med students charging for admissions consulting services, it is because those who posted did so on a public forum that has as one of its core principles empowerment through shared knowledge and discussion. If we as a society, or as potential applicants to medicine, find it acceptable that people begin to charge for some of the information that would otherwise be available freely on the med forums, we create a tiered system wherein access is denied for some (whether that be for geographic reasons, monetary reasons etc.). This disparity in access is actually a serious problem as far as medical school admissions is concerned because it perpetuates class systems already in place- affluent individuals from major urban centres continue to be able to preferentially access resources which in turn help them occupy positions of power and authority in society. </p>
<p>So, if we are interested in attempting to level the playing field (which is already extremely skewed toward the status quo via MCAT courses, access to summer jobs, time spent studying instead of working etc.) we do need to speak up in favor of shared information for the public pre-med good. Does this make med students who want to offer this service &quot;bad people&quot;, probably not, but in my opinion it is short-sighted and does a dis-service to the movement for a more diverse (financially, culturally, geographically) medical profession.</p>
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		<title>By: Melody K.</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1671</link>
		<dc:creator>Melody K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1671</guid>
		<description>Well said! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said!</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1656</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1656</guid>
		<description>Hi Vatsal,

Unfortunately, I don&#039;t know how medical schools will evaluate your GPA for courses from two different institutions - you should probably send OMSAS an email, or ask the medical schools directly.

As for transferring, I can&#039;t say for sure whether you would do better at York because it&#039;s so dependent on the courses you take and who teaches them and I don&#039;t personally know what UTSG life sciences is like, but I will say that I think York is generally pretty fair - you will do well if you put in the work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Vatsal,</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t know how medical schools will evaluate your GPA for courses from two different institutions &#8211; you should probably send OMSAS an email, or ask the medical schools directly.</p>
<p>As for transferring, I can&#8217;t say for sure whether you would do better at York because it&#8217;s so dependent on the courses you take and who teaches them and I don&#8217;t personally know what UTSG life sciences is like, but I will say that I think York is generally pretty fair &#8211; you will do well if you put in the work.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.medhopeful.com/archive/whats-up-with-premed-altruism-and-nobility/comment-page-1/#comment-1659</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medhopeful.com/?p=1251#comment-1659</guid>
		<description>Hey Ali, 
 
You pose a really good question, and I too haven&#8217;t done enough research on this to answer accurately &#8211; I proposed some possibilities for why, but I&#8217;m well aware that I could be wrong about where this altruism/nobility comes from and how much there actually is &#8211; I am basing it on my own experience which may not be fairly reflective of most schools/methods of teaching in Canada. 
 
I think one problem is that there might be a mindset that we go to school to learn, and that this means to be taught knowledge.  However, we&#8217;re not just taught knowledge in school &#8211; often times that knowledge is mixed in with ideas, perspectives, values, etc.  What happens sometimes is that we might mix knowledge up with ideas/perspectives, and start believing things that are debatable to be true. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Ali,</p>
<p>You pose a really good question, and I too haven&rsquo;t done enough research on this to answer accurately &ndash; I proposed some possibilities for why, but I&rsquo;m well aware that I could be wrong about where this altruism/nobility comes from and how much there actually is &ndash; I am basing it on my own experience which may not be fairly reflective of most schools/methods of teaching in Canada.</p>
<p>I think one problem is that there might be a mindset that we go to school to learn, and that this means to be taught knowledge.  However, we&rsquo;re not just taught knowledge in school &ndash; often times that knowledge is mixed in with ideas, perspectives, values, etc.  What happens sometimes is that we might mix knowledge up with ideas/perspectives, and start believing things that are debatable to be true.</p>
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