Medical School Admissions: How important are non-academic components really?

Posted by Joshua
May 25, 2009

nonacademic

After reading Medaholic’s great post on why grades are the most important component of the medical school admissions process, it got me thinking about how important the non-GPA/MCAT components actually are. And the more I think about it, the more it seems like they are significantly less important than most people realize.

Now, let me make sure there’s no confusion by saying that I do think things like extra-curricular activities, community involvement, travel experiences, hobbies, etc. all have a huge amount of value. But I think their value lies much more in how they help you personally develop and grow, and not so much in really affecting your chances at getting into medical school to the degree that your GPA and MCAT scores do.

And yet it seems to me that a lot of students see to have the perception that you need to have a resume that is a mile long in order to have a shot at getting into medical school. Because of this, some students take on way too much and completely exhaust themselves day in and day out. Not only do I think this is bad for the student’s mental and physical health (and that doing something solely for the sake of applying to medical school is something you will probably regret), but in terms of the medical school admissions process, it’s really unnecessary. And worse, some students take on so many non-academic activities that it seriously hurts their academic performance, without realizing that GPA is always the first step in the medical school door.

Granted, I can’t speak for all medical schools, since there are 17 in Canada and I only know about the Ontario ones. So while I don’t want to make any generalized claims, what I will do is analyze four of the medical schools in Ontario whose admissions process I do know a decent bit about, and the role non-academic components actually play. And from there, you can come to your own conclusions (though it’s pretty obvious what I think).

McMaster University

This past year, McMaster used two main formulas in their admissions process.

Pre-interview (for determining interview invites): 66% GPA and 33% Autobiographical Sketch
Post-interview (for making the actual offers of admission): 33% GPA and 66% Interview

So, let’s look at where non-academic aspects and experiences of your life actually play a role.

Well, for the pre-interview assessment, the only way non-academic components could play a role is in the Autobiographical Sketch.

Well, to my knowledge, McMaster doesn’t admit to using the 48 item Autobiographical Sketch. Rather, this 33% is supposedly only based on 5 short essay questions each being up to 700 characters long (which ends up being ~100 words usually). This year, those questions where:

  1. Ethics is considered one of the most important traits in a future physician. Describe an ethical dilemma that you have faced, how you dealt with it and what you learned from it.
  2. Gauging that you have learned enough is arguably one of the more difficult aspects of a self-directed learning program. What strategies have you (or will you) use to ensure your learning is progressing at an appropriate pace?
  3. Give an example of how you have been challenged around the issue of cultural competency and how you handled it.
  4. What efforts have you made to determine if a career as a physician is the right career for you?
  5. What do you think has been the most important contribution that you have made so far in your life?

Obviously, some of these questions require non-academic experiences, and the quality of those experiences can help you formulate a better answer. But, as I have expressed in many articles before, the quality of your answer often depends more on how you express yourself than the actual examples you rely on. Great experiences don’t directly equate to great essay answers. It takes a lot of hard work and skill to express those experiences in a way that impresses the evaluator within a 700 character limit. It’s also important to realize that the McMaster admissions committee only sees what you tell them – so if you won a Nobel Prize, well, they won’t know unless there’s actually a question where it makes sense for you to mention it and you choose to use it. Finally, your answers to these five questions only make up 33% of your pre-interview score – again, GPA is more important.

Once you get to the actual interview stage, the Multiple Mini Interview (MMI) is the deciding factor. It’s worth 66%, and is essentially the deciding factor, since most applicants that get to the interview stage likely all have strong GPAs now. So the question now is, do your non-academic experiences play a role in the MMI? In my experience, I would say that your non-academic experiences are unlikely to play a direct role in helping you with the stations. MMI stations generally involve critical thinking more than anything, as you are dealing with situations and responding to them. You are significantly more likely to be asked to discuss health care policy than your most important volunteer experience.

While it is true that diverse non-academic experiences can help you develop skills and knowledge that will aid you in the interview (e.g. teamwork, communication, etc.), my point is that you’re not being graded directly on those experiences.

Queen’s University

The Queen’s admissions committee selects applicants to be interviewed only through a GPA and MCAT cutoff. It doesn’t matter if you are a Rhodes scholar, on the cover of Nature magazine, or whatever. If you don’t have the marks and MCAT score, you don’t have a shot at Queen’s.

That being said, at the interview stage, the two interviewers do have your 48 item autobiographical sketch. While it is a tool for the interviewers to get to know you better, again, you’re not graded directly on it. And while you will undoubtedly need to rely on your non-academic experiences to answer the interview questions, again, the skill of interviewing well and marketing yourself in person is a much more significant factor than your actual experiences.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that you would be successful in the medical school admissions process without having done nothing but study. But just because you haven’t won a million awards, volunteered with medical organizations overseas, or been the president of five university clubs, does not mean you have a significantly worse shot than people who do.

University of Western Ontario

Pretty much the same as Queen’s University. They have GPA and MCAT cutoffs to decide who makes it to the interview round. However, the Western interviewers aren’t given anything about you, so even more so, being able to market yourself is significantly more crucial than having simply done things.

University of Toronto

Unless things have changed, academics are weighted 60% both before and after the interview.

And from what I’ve heard, your personal essay and reference letters are the most important aspect of your non-academic score before the interview. When you read some of the online premed forums, there are often complaints about the admissions process. Applicants who seemingly have “amazing non-academic profiles” get rejected pre-interview on an annual basis, making a lot of students think the entire process is just some random lottery.

The problem with simply posting “stats” as applicants like to call them, is that the stats tell us nothing. They tell us nothing about how the essay and reference letters were written, which is what applicants are primarily graded on. As I have stressed many times over, writing essays is in itself a skill set. Your essay is not going to be magnificent simply because your resume is a mile long. The two have zero correlation.

I’m not going to deny that given two exactly same essays, one with “on the cover of Nature magazine” and the other with “had a publication”, the former will likely score better (though not necessarily significantly). My point is that you don’t need to never sleep and have saved the world to prove you will be a good doctor. And that if you’re going to spend extra time on something, unless you are already doing really well, spend that time boosting your grades.

But I should still do something, right? So what non-academic / extra-curricular things should I do?

First of all yes, you should do something. Even if you aren’t applying to medical school, I think you’re missing out on a lot if you don’t pursue things outside of the academic world. Whether that’s sports, music, research, arts, traveling, charity, hobbies, etc. All of these things provide education in many things that you can’t find in the classroom. They are valuable to your personal development, enjoyment, and sanity.

But since we’re talking about medical school, you want to know what I’d suggest, right? Okay, well first off, let me say that one of the questions that I hate the most is “what type of activities should I do to get into medical school?”. Tell a student interested in applying to medical school that you got in, and sometimes, one of the first questions you’re asked is: “So, what extra-curriculars did you do?” Honestly, this question drives me insane sometimes.

I generally don’t answer the question directly. I’ll just mention some random stuff I do in my free time. But most of the time I’ll just say that it doesn’t matter. There is no magical formula. I don’t know why people keep thinking this, but it’s not like doing X, Y, and Z means you’ll automatically get into medical school. It does not work like that.

For instance, a lot of people might tell you that medical schools expect you to have volunteered in a hospital. Well, that’s wrong. How do I know? Well, I have never volunteered in a hospital in my entire life, and I still got in!

What it comes down to is that you should get involved in things you find some enjoyment in. I know it sounds cliche, but you don’t want to do things simply for your resume because then your entire life becomes a chore. I’m not afraid to admit there are a few things I did because I thought I “should” for medical school, and I regret all of them. It’s not worth it, and it probably won’t affect your chances (unless you’re way too lazy to do anything in the first place). Whether you like joining your school’s band, playing varsity or intramural sports, joining your school’s cultural association, or whatever. Do it first and foremost for you, and figure out the rest later.

All that being said, I do think it’s a good idea to get some experience in the health care field. Not just because it will probably be good for your application, but if you’re serious about spending the next six to ten years training in medicine, not withstanding the thousands of dollars in expenses, don’t you think you should have some basic idea of what you’re getting yourself into? Granted, volunteering at a hospital or shadowing a physician isn’t the same as actually being a doctor, but those types of activities will at least give you some basic insight into the field. So not only will it give you an idea of what being a physician might be like, but it demonstrates to admissions committees and interviewers that you’ve obviously put some thought into the career.

What is your point, really?

I get the feeling this entire article is pretty disorganized and just a bunch of rambling in a lot of places. So let me try and sum up what I’m trying to say.

Are non-academic experiences like extra-curriculars important? Yes, they are important to your personal growth, and yes they are important to the medical school admissions process. However, what exactly you’ve done is not as important as the lessons and skills you’ve taken away from them, and how well you can explain that via essays and the interview.

You don’t need to be involved in a gazillion things and have a resume a mile long (yes, I realized this is the third time I’ve used this phrase!). Just do things you enjoy, spend some time exploring the health care field, and then (this is key) spend a significant amount of time strategizing which experiences you should choose to mention in your essay and how to sell it best (and the same goes for the interview) – of course, how to do that well, is a discussion for another day.

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Comments

Hit the target perfectly. A student that has worked hard on their studies, scored well on tests and are informed about what a career of health care is like (through volunteering or talking with professionals in it) is all you need to be a medical student.

Remember, entering medical school is not the end, it is just the beginning. Develop yourself as a person and you’ll be better off, regardless of whether you’re applying to medical school or not.

Comment by medaholic on May 25, 2009 @ 5:20 pm

Wish there was an edit button to correct my terrible grammar haha

Comment by medaholic on May 25, 2009 @ 5:21 pm

This is an interesting article.

Comment by Anonymous on May 25, 2009 @ 6:30 pm

And still students dont listen!!! – Great article!

Comment by Paris on May 25, 2009 @ 8:08 pm

Hey Joshua, you went to York Biomedical Science right?? What did you think of that program??? based on : difficulty, professors, atmosphere?

Right Now I am considering between 2 universities: Western(Biomed) and York(Biomedical Science). I can save like 10,000 grand going to York, but its like 1.10 hour commute one way. For Western I will live on rez. I know that Western’s Biomedical program is more prestigious, but does it really worth paying extra $10,000?

BTW: My goal for the future is most likely going to dental school in Canada or US.

Where do you think I should go and what did you think of York’s Biomedical Science program. I am leaning towards going to York, but I worry if it will decrease my chances of getting into dental school.

Any responce would be GREATLY APPRETIATED!!!!

Comment by Frank101 on May 25, 2009 @ 9:28 pm

Finally someone gets it. I also have never volunteered in a hospital, while I’m sure some people find value in it for most it is just a box to check off. When you fill out your application you will realize how puny a one-off EC seems, no matter how many hours have been completed.

Your ECs are painting a picture of who you are – if you are following what everyone else has done then there is not much there to go on is there? Go after what you love to do and get involved with it at different levels (ie play a sport, coach a youth team, referee, sit on the local sports council). That will have some meaning for you as well as any interview panel you sit in front of.

Comment by Anonymous on May 26, 2009 @ 11:28 am

Hi Joshua,
I absolutely agree with doing what you love, makes life all the more fun!!!

You also said that you didn’t volunteer in hospital environments, so how did you know that being a doctor was something you wanted to do?

Congrats on getting in and best of luck in the coming years!!!!!

Comment by Sara on May 26, 2009 @ 2:45 pm

Hi Frank,

Because I haven’t attended any other university, I’m not sure how much of my comments can really help. I think the courses and professors for York Biomed are pretty much the same as you would find at any other university. I will say that York has a nice laid back atmosphere, and most of the students are really nice and helpful.

The 1 hour+ commute does not seem fun, especially during the first two years where you have a lot of science labs, making your days especially long.

I would honestly go where you think you will enjoy the most. Do you want to leave home and live on campus? Which campus did you feel more comfortable in? In all honesty, I think those questions are way more important than trying to compare the science programs because I really don’t think there would be a significant difference in quality.

I don’t know if going to York would decrease your chances of going to dental school, but I doubt it.

Good luck!

Comment by Joshua on May 26, 2009 @ 3:26 pm

Hi Sara,

I didn’t volunteer in a hospital, but I did shadow a physician several times over the course of a year, so I got sort of a basic feel for what it might be like. But like I said, that’s a really limited experience, though I guess it’s better than nothing.

Also, not just for medicine, but I think job/career shadowing is really useful if you’re considering any type of career.

Comment by Joshua on May 26, 2009 @ 3:29 pm

Hey Joshua,

I’m just about finished my first year at york (biomed), and I don’t know if you heard, but there may be another strike during the 2011-2012 school year when the union’s contract expires. This would mean that I would be in my 4th year, and through my second strike. Because of this do you I should transfer to another university after my second year or do you think I should just stay? Did this affect your medical school applications?

Thanks.

Comment by John on May 26, 2009 @ 5:35 pm

Sorry I meant to say did the strike affect your medical school applications.

Comment by John on May 26, 2009 @ 5:37 pm

Hey John,

The only way the strike would affect my medical school application is if my final transcript is not ready on time (it’s due June 30). During the year, both McMaster and Queen’s told me that even if I got in, if my final transcript was not sent to them by June 30, I would lose my spot.

York plans on having final transcripts ready for mid-June, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed that I don’t get screwed. If everything goes well, then no, the strike would not have affected my medical school applications whatsoever. It’s not like any school rejected me simply because of the strike – they will give you a shot, and only reject you if your stuff doesn’t get in on time at the end of the year.

Considering that the strike this year went for on for a ridiculous amount of time, I find it very unlikely the strike (if there is another one) would go this long again in 2011-2012. And even if it did, York would probably be more prepared that year.

So no, I don’t think it should really affect you, but I of course can’t guarantee anything.

Comment by Joshua on May 26, 2009 @ 6:41 pm

Hi Joshua,

You mentioned that grades is the most important thing to get into medical school (or any other thing that’s hard to get in).

I’m implying that this doesn’t apply to high school students? As long as I could get into a university and get good grades in university, then high school wouldn’t matter, right? Would the best thing to do in high school right now is to explore what I want to do for sure (so I don’t waste $10000 switching programs in the middle of university) instead of focusing on marks? Or would it be like do whatever you can to keep a 90+ average?

Comment by Anonymous on May 28, 2009 @ 10:34 pm

York wasn’t prepared this time, why will they be prepared the next time?

This has happened on multiple occasions, and this was not the first time it had happened.

Comment by Anonymous on May 29, 2009 @ 9:43 am

To the first comment: You’re right, in terms of applying to medical school, high school grades do not matter whatsoever. It’s sort of like a fresh start. I do think it’s a good idea to spend time exploring different careers you might be interested in, as well as different post-secondary programs you might be interested in. You don’t have to decide everything right now, but it’s definitely a good idea to start thinking about things, so that you don’t miss out on opportunities just because you found out too late. Marks are still important, in the sense that it affects your chances for scholarships, and there are some programs that do require 90+ averages and stuff like that. So it really depends on what programs you are thinking about going into.

To the comment above, I think it depends on what you mean by prepared. If I remember things right, the last major strike was 8 years ago…? I just meant that any new protocols developed post-strike this time would probably be useful in the event of another strike in a few years, and the transition back to school might be better. In terms of how long the actual strike would be, I’d like to think that how badly things went this year would be incentive for both sides to not let something like that happen again, but who knows.

Comment by Joshua on May 29, 2009 @ 1:02 pm

Hey Joshua,

Congratulations on getting in!
I feel relieved to read all your feedback and comments on many of the aspects of getting an admission to a medical school.
All your blogs are wonderful and they give me the kind of advice I am looking for. Thanks for that!=)

Comment by Natasha on May 29, 2009 @ 6:08 pm

Thanks Natasha! =) Glad you are enjoying the blog

Comment by Joshua on May 29, 2009 @ 6:38 pm

Hey Josh Congrats on everything. I completely agree with you that marks are everything but getting bad marks in first years should not be one of the reasons students do not apply to medical school. For me personally it frustrating and disappointing that I could apply to medical school because I did badly in certain first year courses. There is no correlation between high marks and becoming a great doctor.

Comment by Sara on June 1, 2009 @ 6:40 pm

Hey Sara,

Fortunately, some medical schools realize this – like Western and Queen’s which look at your best or most recent 2 years. UofT is also flexible, in that if you are a 4th year applicant, you can drop some of your lowest marks. Ottawa also weighs more recent courses more heavily than earlier ones. As long as you keep working hard and don’t lose sight of your goals, you can still definitely make it.

Comment by Joshua on June 3, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

Hey Joshua. Had a quick question. I am in my 5th, and last, year of undergrad studies at York (an honours social science degree). It took me longer to complete because of problems at home which forced me to take some time off of school. Anyway, realistically – I don’t think I could get into a Canadian medical school right now because my cGPA will be around 3.4-3.6. I wanted to do an extra year (my 6th) of undegrad to write my honours thesis since i missed out on the opportunity earlier and aim for a 3.8+ for the year. But this is where I’m stuck. I was thinking of beginning a new degree at York in biology and trying to do really well in that so i can apply with a clean slate ot some schools. Based on your experiences with the OMSAS applications, do you think it would be feasible for me to do a 6th year and if i get that 3.8+ gpa next year, aply directly to med school….or do you think it would still be unlikely and so perhaps just start the second degree? thanks in advance…

Comment by Another Hopeful on June 7, 2009 @ 12:25 am

Hey,

I’m probably one of the worst people to ask about stuff like this to be honest, and I don’t want to give you any bad information.

I really suggest you head over to http://premed101.com/forums/ and post your question, and there are quite a few posters there who will have had similar experiences and can provide better advice than me.

Comment by Joshua on June 8, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

have you ever did hospital volunteer work? I just recently got a position that requires a lot of me, im not sure if the time is worth it.

Comment by John on June 17, 2009 @ 7:10 am

Did your brother have a different med school application then you? did he have a lot of volunteer work?

Comment by John on June 17, 2009 @ 7:30 am

Hey John,

Nope, I never volunteered in a hospital. I would suggest trying it for a month maybe, and seeing if you like it. If you don’t enjoy doing it, there’s no shame in stopping.

My brother and I did a few similar things but also a lot of different things. He volunteered a few summers at a hospital, but I don’t think that will really make or break your application. Whether you volunteer or work or whatever, how you use that in your application and interview is much more important than having done a lot.

Comment by Joshua on June 17, 2009 @ 4:57 pm

Hi Joshua,

First, I would like to say that I really love your blog for several reasons: its very well written, true and honest and quite inspirational.

Second, congrats on getting into medical school. Just a question (sorry if it has been answered before since I didn’t really come across this) – I know that you got into MacMaster and UFT – which one did you pick to attend.

Finally, I need some advice:

I am doing Biology at York and I’ll be going into my 3rd year this fall. Unfortunately, I did not do well in my first year but I improved considerably in my second year. I am planning to the MCAT latest by next summer. But, I am really confused on when I should be sending in my applications for med school: Should I wait till I am done all four years given that I did not do well in first year and that would bring my cgpa down or should I give it a shot while I am still dong my undergrad?

Thanks.

Comment by Sandra on June 26, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thanks! I’m glad you’re enjoying the blog =) I decided to go to UofT in the end.

If money is not an issue, I don’t see any harm in applying next year – at the very least, you will get some good experience in the process, and there will be less preparation work should you apply again in following years.

Comment by Joshua on June 29, 2009 @ 11:42 am

Hi Joshua,

Thanks for the reply. I was also wondering whether you did a NSERC position and if you could probably give some advise about it. I would like to gain some research experience but I am totally lost on where I should begin. I am really interested in the NSERC program and it would be really great if you could share some thoughts regarding that.

Thanks.

Comment by Sandra on June 30, 2009 @ 8:53 pm

Hello Joshua,

Through your experience, what would you say a competitive GPA in terms of gaining admissions to medical school? I know the calculation vary from school to school and this is kind of a vague question but an estimate or any feedback from your personal experience would be great.

Congrats on getting in and do keep us posted with your medical school experience.

Comment by Anna on June 30, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

Hi Joshua,

I am attending York University right now and I am kind of confused with calculating my GPA on a 4.0 scale. The courses I took last year were mainly 4 credits but I have heard that it counts as 0.5 credits. So, each 4 credit course counts as a 3 credit and that way, I am afraid that the total will not add upto 30. Now, if I do the calculation like that, the total number of credits would not add upto 5 even though I took full 30 credits last year and I am really worried that it may translate into the fact that I did not take a full course load according to the medical schools. Please help clarify my confusion.

Comment by Lee on July 1, 2009 @ 6:13 pm

Hi Sandra,

The NSERC USRA program is basically summer funding for undergraduate students to get involved in research. What you should do is find a professor in the fall who is willing to take you on as a summer student, and apply for an NSERC with them I think sometime in January or February. Not really sure what else to say about it, but if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

Comment by Joshua on July 3, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

Hey Anna,

Yah you’re spot on that it really depends. I don’t want to say this as a rule because I know this is quite challenging, but ideally you want to aim for a 3.9+ to have a good shot at all medical schools around. Regardless, you should make sure you have at least 2 years above 3.7+ – I would say that is the most important, but higher is always better.

Comment by Joshua on July 3, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

Hey Lee,

This is only a problem at McMaster and Queen’s (or any other school that looks at the number of courses you took). What you will need to do is take an extra half course (i.e. a 3.0 credit course) during the year you apply to medical school or anytime earlier.

So for example, I dealt with this problem by taking the equivalent of 11 half course (or 33.0 credits) this past year.

Comment by Joshua on July 3, 2009 @ 6:12 pm

Hey Joshua,

This is Anna. Hmm…I am really worried cuz I have just finished my first year with 3.2ish and I am not sure if that will have a major impact on my chances of getting in. I am gonna try to pull that GPA up coming the fall session but can you plz lemme know from ur experience, if first year grades matter so much??

Thanks for ur help

Comment by Anna on July 4, 2009 @ 9:55 pm

Hi Anna,

Your first year grades won’t hurt you too much in the long run if you work harder and pull those grades up. Schools like Western and Queen’s look at your best two years, and schools like Ottawa weigh each subsequent year more than the previous year.

However, there are schools like McMaster that will use your first year marks and you can’t do much about that except just keep working harder.

But as long as you keep working hard, getting into medical school is still possible at many places.

Good luck!

Comment by Joshua on July 5, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

Hello,

I am also having the same problem. I have 4 4.0 credit courses so to reach 30 at York i will probably end up doing only 9 actual courses. This is not viewed as a full course load by Med schools?

Comment by Paul on July 8, 2009 @ 8:34 am

Hi Paul,

It depends on the specific requirements of the school, and you should check closely with them.

If you want to apply to schools like Queen’s or McMaster, that require 30 half courses, then you will need to take an extra half course in the summer or next year.

Comment by Joshua on July 10, 2009 @ 1:25 pm

Hey Josh,

Just wanted to know if we could included the activities we did during our high school years on the medical school application or are they just looking for the extra curriculum involvement during the undergrad years.

I was reading through your blog and you had mentioned that you shadowed a physician. I am also interested in doing something similar but I don’t know where to start and any advise would be greatly appreciated. By shadowing a physician, do you mean volunteering at a local clinic? and can you also share what kinds of things you did during that position.

Cheers,

Lisa

Comment by Lisa on July 20, 2009 @ 9:02 am

Hi Lisa,

For Ontario medical schools, you can include activities you did as far back as 16 years old – except for the University of Ottawa, which only looks at thing you did since starting university. That being said, I think most admissions committees would care more about what you’re doing right now or most recently. But if you have space on your application, I think mentioning things you did in high school is fine (I did this).

By shadowing a physician, I mean observing what he or she does as part of their day to day routines as doctors. This isn’t really volunteering because you’re not doing anything – you’re basically just observing and learning about what the career entails. So for example, I shadowed a pediatric neurosurgeon in his clinic for several days, so I saw how he did check ups with patients, met new patients, discussed their situations with the family, how he prepared before seeing patients, what he did after seeing a patient, etc.

Comment by Joshua on July 20, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

Hi Joshua,

I was just wondering if you have any information about US medical schools – do you think they are easier to get into for Canadian students? and if you have any ideas on how they calculate GPA since I am so confused about that. I have e-mailed some of them and they just direct me to their website or the AMCAS website….it is really frustrating :(

I also wanted to clarify since you went to York – if we get an A at York (that’s an 8.0 but on the 4.0 scale – is that a 3.8 or 4.0 ???)

Comment by Ayesha on July 27, 2009 @ 9:04 am

Hey Josh,

I am looking to get some leadership experience under my belt. Can you please gimme some ideas on what kind of things I could do for that. I already have experience as a camp leader, I also did peer mentoring and I am an executive member of one the clubs at my university. I was thinking it might be valuable to include some more stuff in there.

Just an aside thing I wanted to ask – do you think it is worthwhile to repeat courses to get a better grade (give that all my other marks are good except for 2 courses) – would the schools take the higher grade or ave of the two grades.

Thank you.

Comment by Natasha on July 27, 2009 @ 9:18 am

Hi Joshua,

I hope you are enjoying your summer and congrats on getting into med school.

Now, this question has been discussed earlier on your site but I want to clarify something:

I am a York University student and in the last 2 years, I took a lot of 4 credit courses (for a total of 30 credits) – I know that it counts as a 0.5 (same as a 3 credit course) but….for being eligible for the weighted GPA calculation at UFT…would I still qualify? Would they still count it as a full course load?

I have also done summer school during all my undergrad years so far, on top of taking 30 credits every year (just in case you needed that info to answer my question).

Suggestion – I think it would be great to have a GPA calculator on this site that could help convert our GPA on a 4.0 scale.

Cheers,

Julia

Comment by Julia on July 28, 2009 @ 8:28 pm

Hi Joshua,

First of all, congrats on getting into med school. That sure is a great achievement. I’m really grateful to you for the blog you’ve made. It’s really helpful.

I had a few questions.I’m currently a student at McMaster University Life Sciences and have completed my first year. I’m thinking of switching to York University for Health Informatics Co-op Program this coming september but I keep getting some negative feedback about how Med schools are biased against York, because its apparently comparatively easier than McMaster. That’s my primary concern right now and since you’ve attened York and have gotten into med school, no one can be a better person to approach. I’m really interested in the health informatics program at york, but I just fear that hurting my chances of getting into a med school in Canada. Also, do med schools care what undergrad degree you do?

I heard that if med schools get two students, one from York and one from McMaster or Uft, they’d pick the one from McMaster. Although, my instincts tell me that’s not true, I’d still like to verify with you. So if you could shed some light on that topic, I’d be beyond grateful to you as I have to make my decision really fast now.

Comment by Unaiza on July 30, 2009 @ 7:13 pm

Hi Ayesha,

Unfortunately I don’t know anything about applying to American schools. All I can suggest is to keep doing your research online, and perhaps try and get in touch with some people who have been through the process.

Comment by Joshua on July 30, 2009 @ 9:23 pm

Hi Natasha,

I have no idea if you’re allowed to retake courses – I don’t think you can unless you failed, but I don’t really know. Even if you did, I would be surprised if medical schools were unable to see all of your marks.

As for leadership experience, it sounds like you’re doing some really good things right now. As I’m sure you’ve heard many times before, quality is much more important than quantity. If you are already enjoying what you’re doing, I’d just suggest continuing to do it, but perhaps see if you can pursue higher positions and gain more responsibility. When you apply to medical schools, you’re generally only going to have the opportunity to talk about a few experiences, so you want them to be strong ones with lots of depth.

Comment by Joshua on July 30, 2009 @ 9:25 pm

Hi Julia,

Thanks!

Yes, I’m pretty sure you should be fine for UofT’s GPA adjustment. According to the UofT website, for a school like York that uses a credit system, “A full course load would be 28 credits or higher in the regular academic session.” So I think you should be okay, but you can always email UofT just to make sure.

A GPA calculator would be helpful, definitely a possibility for the future. Thanks!

Comment by Joshua on July 30, 2009 @ 9:30 pm

Hi Unaiza,

The undergraduate program or university you attend does not matter at all in the admissions process. Of course I can’t say this with 100% certainty, but that’s what medical schools openly declare, and I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t true.

If you look at medical school classes, the students come from many different universities. While York University might have fewer medical students, I think that’s more because we have fewer medical applicants in the first place.

I wouldn’t worry at all about it, and you should not let that affect whether you would like to transfer to York.

Good luck!

Comment by Joshua on July 30, 2009 @ 9:34 pm

Hi Joshua,

Thanks for the useful post. I had two more questions. Lately, I heard that York’s GPA system brings your average down when it is calculated for med schools. As in, if you get an overall average of an A grade, that would most likely be dropped to an A – . Is that true? if yes, how does that work?

Also, do med schools care what program you do your undergrad in? I’ve heard they don’t but some still advise me to do sciences to have a better shot.

Thanks,
Unaiza

Comment by Unaiza on July 31, 2009 @ 10:23 am

Hi Unaiza,

I wouldn’t trust anything that you hear unless it came directly from OMSAS or the medical school themselves. This is the official PDF for how your marks will be converted when applying to Ontario medical schools:

http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf

Of course, this will vary from medical school to medical school. You should always consult the medical school for information like this.

Like I always say, you can’t be 100% sure about anything, but I personally believe that medical schools don’t care what your undergrad program is. If you do pursue something completely unrelated to medicine, such as music, then you should of course be able to explain this when asked in an interview. But as long as you can do that, then it shouldn’t matter.

I would highly suggest against doing a undergrad program just because of a hunch that medical schools might prefer it more, especially when there is no proof about such a thing. Especially if you decide not to attend medical school at some point in the future, it would be unfortunate if you’re stuck in a program or with a degree that you have no interest in.

Comment by Joshua on July 31, 2009 @ 2:03 pm

Hi Joshua,

Its Ayesha here. First, I want to thank you for the response.

However, you did not answer one of my questions and I really need some clarification on this since I am so confused.

“I also wanted to clarify since you went to York – if we get an A at York (that’s an 8.0 but on the 4.0 scale – is that a 3.7 or 3.8 or 4.0 ???)”. My question is in regards to the OMSAS scale – I have looked at the conversion table but I find it kind of confusing and different people are telling me different things so I thought to ask you since you have gone through the process.

Thanks.

Comment by Ayesha on August 2, 2009 @ 10:39 am

Hi Ayesha,

If you look at the OMSAS scale, York uses column 9. According to column 9, an A is a 3.80. Just look at the letter grade in column 9, and it corresponds with the OMSAS value on the last column to the far right.

Keep in mind that the OMSAS scale only applies to Ontario schools. Some medical schools outside of Ontario may look at York grades differently, which might be why you are hearing different things.

Hope that helps!

Comment by Joshua on August 2, 2009 @ 1:06 pm

Hi Joshua
I stumbled across this website today, while taking a break from studying the MCAT. I am a student from Alberta who just finished the 2nd year univ in Alberta university, and I want to apply to U of Toronto med school this year. Like you mentioned above, I do not have any publications or I did not win gazillions of awards, but I think I have adequate amount of extracurricular activities to present to the admissions people and explain how each experience shaped me. Now, my main concern is my GPA. I have been doing fairly well in the past three semesters in university, but in the last semester of my 2nd year my marks crashed to B+ range. The main reason was because I had a big emotional meltdown and such. When I checked the OMSAS scale, it says that I could elaborate on any possible reasons that contributed to my low marks and stuff. Do you think it is a good idea to talk about my issues in that section? Would it sound too whiny?
So, my cumulative GPA is ~3.76ish at the moment. Do you think my GPA is too low even to be considered for an interview? U of Toronto’s been my dream and I know I messed up and it’s entirely my fault that my grades stink like crazy, but I am just so frustrated right now and I wanted to talk to someone.

By the way I really like your website! Thanks for bearing my random rambling and I hope to hear from you sometime!

From a distressed rambling person :)

Comment by Suzanne on August 24, 2009 @ 9:41 pm

Hi Suzanne,

Glad you are finding the blog helpful! If you honestly believe your circumstances affected your academics, then I see no problem mentioning it on OMSAS. I would, however, be hesitant on mentioning it in your essay unless you had a very good reason to.

I would say that as a 3rd year applicant, getting an interview with that GPA is likely going to be challenging but if you have the money and time to apply, you might as well just go for it.

Good luck!

Comment by Joshua on August 28, 2009 @ 12:04 pm

Hi Joshua,

First, I want to thank you for setting this blog up to help fellow medical school hopefuls. My question is:

If I register for the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award (Silver) when I am 15 and complete it when I am 16, can I use this as one of my achievements for my medical school application? Since I started before I was 16, I’m not sure if I can still note this down on my medical school application.

Thanks, your help is much appreciated!

Comment by Claire on December 6, 2009 @ 9:07 pm

Also, can you suggest a few thing we can do as high school students (gr10,11,12) that will help out medical school applications? Because I will need non-academic experiences and extracurricular for university applications, I want to be able to use them towards my medical school applications as well. Also, do you know of any research opportunities for high school students?

Thanks for the help,
Claire

Comment by Claire on December 6, 2009 @ 9:11 pm

Claire: No problem, glad you are finding the blog helpful!

I think it’s fine to mention anything that occurs when you are 16 and older. So if you complete it at 16, I think it’s fine to mention.

I would say just get involved in things you like – I wouldn’t worry so much about being strategic for medical school, because if you enjoy it, you will do well in it, and it will show. That being said, doing something medically related (e.g. volunteering, shadowing doctors, etc.) to learn more about the profession will be helpful both to your decision on whether medicine is for you, and also to show medical schools you have done your homework on the profession. You should also try and develop your leadership skills, and have some leadership roles – to show you can work in a team in all capacities.

As for research opportunities for high school students, check out:

http://www.genecure.ca/en/programs/gene-researcher-for-a-week/program-description/

http://www.drsa.ca/blog/index.php

Comment by Joshua on December 8, 2009 @ 1:21 pm

Hey Joshua,

It Claire again. Please realize that you’ve been really helpful. Thanks! Because I recently graduated from high school but not yet in university, I plan to find a internship/research position at a medical research centre or hospital. I do understand that most of these are offered for undergraduate students, but I really want to gain some experience. Can you please provide me with some tips on how I can do this, or suggest some opportunities that you know of? Thanks.

Comment by Claire on December 8, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

And just to let you know, I’ve applied for the Gene Cure Researcher For A Week Program you suggested me. Wish me luck! =D

Comment by Claire on December 8, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

Hi Claire,

Honestly, I don’t have much experience with this kind of thing. My only suggestion is to do as much research as you can, find people whose work interests you, and send off a bunch of emails with a CV and cover letter. Persistence is key.

Best of luck!

Comment by Joshua on December 8, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

Hi joshua! Congrats on getting in!
On the U OF T website they were mentioning about eliminating lowest marks
“The weighting formula is a method of GPA calculation eliminating some lower course marks”.Since i end up with a D in genetics our prof was really bad! does that actually help!!!
thnx Joshua

Comment by Sandra on January 1, 2010 @ 6:14 pm

Hey Joshua! Your website was splendidly helpful. I was wondering if I didn’t take full course load but just 4.5 (4 half courses per semester and 5 half credited courses in another) does that affect my GPA calculation and med school admission. However, I do have 5 credits per year because I make up for it during the summer.

Thank you so much for your help!

Sincerely,
Marina

Comment by Marina on January 10, 2010 @ 7:06 pm

Hey Sandra,

Thanks! =)

Comment by Joshua on January 17, 2010 @ 3:20 pm

Hi Marina,

I would say it depends on the medical school – I don’t know the rules off the top of my head, but the medical school websites will make it clear how they will interpret it.

Comment by Joshua on January 17, 2010 @ 3:20 pm
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